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Jerden's avatar

I feel like this depends on whether or not you value retribution as an end in itself - in the abstract we probably don't, we're all good consequentialists here in the abstract real of ideas, but think seriously about whether your "retribution is wrong" attitude would change if one of those people had tortured someone you care about personally.

I have an admittedly cynical view that one of the goals of the criminal justice system is satisfying the desire for vengeance such that the majority of people feels no need to take the law into their own hands, because that is absolutely the kind of thing people do when they don't feel like the legal system is able to do it for them. To placate these people, the legal system probably ends up harsher than it might otherwise be if left purely to the wisdom of the ruling class or even the preferences of the average person. Which isn't to say that we can't have a less punitive criminal justice system, it's just that I can't see a completely non-punitive system working without a significant change to society.

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Kevin P's avatar

The example doesn't seem to be doing anything more than just restating the premise. Effectively its just assuming "in a situation where a punishment had no non-retributive value but nonzero costs, you wouldn't apply it" which is the exact thing you're trying to prove.

(Perhaps there's also a slight element of haggling over the cost, or perhaps a hint of the dust-specks-vs-torture argument, but both of these would just be distractions from the point you're trying to make)

Here's an alternative version that (at least to me) points in the opposite direction:

You have the magical ability to make people step in dog poo.

Last week somebody stole your bike. You clearly saw the person who did it.

Today you see them again. You're 99.99% certain it's the same person.

Stepping in poo would have no deterrent value - nobody would associate it with the theft. (You don't want to make your ability public because otherwise you'd be subjected to all sorts of uncomfortable scientific testing.) It wouldn't keep them away from stealing other bikes. And there's no way it would rehabilitate them into the sort of person that doesn't steal.

Do they end up with sticky smelly shoes? If so why is the situation different from the one in the post?

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