I wonder how this tracks with "pride" in the old Christian sense? The way early Christians talk about pride often makes it sound outright malicious, a feeling of lording it over others, a feeling of being *like* God rather than worshiping God. And then there is the original Greek concept of hubris, which involved not just pride but elevating oneself by destroying the honor of another free man (obviously this is problematic due to the nature of honor in a patriarchal, slaveholding society, but that's beside the point). As defined by Aristotle:
"...to cause shame to the victim, not in order that anything may happen to you, nor because anything has happened to you, but merely for your own gratification. Hubris is not the requital of past injuries; this is revenge. As for the pleasure in hubris, its cause is this: naive men think that by ill-treating others they make their own superiority the greater."
Obviously neither of these are exact fits, but they seem like they're in the ballpark. Also I can't help but pronounce it "eev-kneh", like it's Swedish, perhaps because it looks like the name Yngve.
I'm glad somebody already said this, because this is almost exactly what I was going to say. The _sin_ of Pride is to think ourselves _actually better than others_, in some essential way that denies their equal dignity (before G*d, before the law, however you want to think of it) just because we have performed better, accumulated more wealth, etc.
But it is perhaps worth having a separate word to distinguish "good pride" from the sin of pride. We can be justifiably proud of our own, or our communities, contributions, without denigrating the dignity and worth of others.
This seems valuable not only as an new concept, but as an example of how emotion concepts in particular can help us see familiar social phenomena in a new way. Maybe the distinction from schadenfreude relates to the abstractness of the target: yvne is not about anyone in particular (let alone someone you have personal baggage with), but a generic group of lesser-offs. Envy is similarly abstract in theory, but by its very nature probably more charged and focused in practice: you *want* something others have, *resent* them for having it, whereas those with yvne have the luxury to lord it over people without really thinking about it that hard or specifically.
Either in its target of who is envied, or in what is being envied. Makes sense, since envy is often associated with a state of affairs one feels was imposed upon them (so an extra urgency to escape or resist that).
I assume Yvne can either take the form of delighting in one's better fortune, or in one's supposed better virtue (if they think they earned that higher position through their own effort and merit)? This seems important to elaborate.
This is perhaps a bit of a tangent, but I often find it useful to distinguish _envy_ (wanting what somebody else has) from _jealousy_ (fearing that others will take what you have). I feel like there's some kind of converse / inverse / contrapositive relationship here, among envy, yvne, and jealousy.
I like the concept! It seems useful. I think in some cases it can be a positive thing; e.g. in a competitive game, someone who's better than everyone else may be doing it for the feeling of yvne, but as long as their method of being the best focuses on improving themselves rather than on harming others, this seems fine.
Yikes......I am not sure I've ever really explored this feeling much. From an early age I learned to do the whole "there but for the grace of God go I", as well as trying to be thankful for as many little things during the day as I can - the beautiful view outside my windows; having windows; knowing I have great kids; being able to eat, sleep, work when I want to. The million tiny blessings that make up a blessed life. Generally I don't want what other people have, or fear that they will take something that is truly mine from me (most of the time). I just want to be left alone.
Now schadenfreude......especially in the political arena or an area where people who are in power, and destroying stuff for others, get what they deserve (or at least a little bit of what they deserve) - that's a feeling I lean into way too often. As soon as I heard about it as a concept (from Walker Percy's Lost In the Cosmos, btw) I thought, "Wow, that is a really bad thing....and yeah....I totally own that!" I wish I were a better person, but I'm not.
If i am learning piano and improving day by day, is being pleased by that Yvne? It seems so; "Yvne is joy in having nicer things and having done greater things." I am not convinced that pleasure in doing something well compared to other people is a vice.
One interesting way to consider ethics is to look at yourself at different points in time as different persons, so you can see what happens if you internalitse all costs.
Envy is wrong because you shouldn't sabotage your future abilities because you are worse now, that is negative sum.
You also shouldn't sabotage your future abilities to make yourself worse in the future so you are comparatively better now, again that is negative sum. This is behaviour that might arise from yvne, but not yvne itself.
But taking pleasure in improvement does not seem like a bad thing at all: it costs nobody and provides pleasure, so I fail to see the problem.
I wonder how this tracks with "pride" in the old Christian sense? The way early Christians talk about pride often makes it sound outright malicious, a feeling of lording it over others, a feeling of being *like* God rather than worshiping God. And then there is the original Greek concept of hubris, which involved not just pride but elevating oneself by destroying the honor of another free man (obviously this is problematic due to the nature of honor in a patriarchal, slaveholding society, but that's beside the point). As defined by Aristotle:
"...to cause shame to the victim, not in order that anything may happen to you, nor because anything has happened to you, but merely for your own gratification. Hubris is not the requital of past injuries; this is revenge. As for the pleasure in hubris, its cause is this: naive men think that by ill-treating others they make their own superiority the greater."
Obviously neither of these are exact fits, but they seem like they're in the ballpark. Also I can't help but pronounce it "eev-kneh", like it's Swedish, perhaps because it looks like the name Yngve.
Really good points
I'm glad somebody already said this, because this is almost exactly what I was going to say. The _sin_ of Pride is to think ourselves _actually better than others_, in some essential way that denies their equal dignity (before G*d, before the law, however you want to think of it) just because we have performed better, accumulated more wealth, etc.
But it is perhaps worth having a separate word to distinguish "good pride" from the sin of pride. We can be justifiably proud of our own, or our communities, contributions, without denigrating the dignity and worth of others.
This seems valuable not only as an new concept, but as an example of how emotion concepts in particular can help us see familiar social phenomena in a new way. Maybe the distinction from schadenfreude relates to the abstractness of the target: yvne is not about anyone in particular (let alone someone you have personal baggage with), but a generic group of lesser-offs. Envy is similarly abstract in theory, but by its very nature probably more charged and focused in practice: you *want* something others have, *resent* them for having it, whereas those with yvne have the luxury to lord it over people without really thinking about it that hard or specifically.
It's interesting that envy is often bitterly specific in its target, whereas Yvne is often less so.
Either in its target of who is envied, or in what is being envied. Makes sense, since envy is often associated with a state of affairs one feels was imposed upon them (so an extra urgency to escape or resist that).
I assume Yvne can either take the form of delighting in one's better fortune, or in one's supposed better virtue (if they think they earned that higher position through their own effort and merit)? This seems important to elaborate.
This is perhaps a bit of a tangent, but I often find it useful to distinguish _envy_ (wanting what somebody else has) from _jealousy_ (fearing that others will take what you have). I feel like there's some kind of converse / inverse / contrapositive relationship here, among envy, yvne, and jealousy.
I like the concept! It seems useful. I think in some cases it can be a positive thing; e.g. in a competitive game, someone who's better than everyone else may be doing it for the feeling of yvne, but as long as their method of being the best focuses on improving themselves rather than on harming others, this seems fine.
It's similar to envy in that one could argue that benign yvne exists, but it partly depends on the exact definition.
Yikes......I am not sure I've ever really explored this feeling much. From an early age I learned to do the whole "there but for the grace of God go I", as well as trying to be thankful for as many little things during the day as I can - the beautiful view outside my windows; having windows; knowing I have great kids; being able to eat, sleep, work when I want to. The million tiny blessings that make up a blessed life. Generally I don't want what other people have, or fear that they will take something that is truly mine from me (most of the time). I just want to be left alone.
Now schadenfreude......especially in the political arena or an area where people who are in power, and destroying stuff for others, get what they deserve (or at least a little bit of what they deserve) - that's a feeling I lean into way too often. As soon as I heard about it as a concept (from Walker Percy's Lost In the Cosmos, btw) I thought, "Wow, that is a really bad thing....and yeah....I totally own that!" I wish I were a better person, but I'm not.
If i am learning piano and improving day by day, is being pleased by that Yvne? It seems so; "Yvne is joy in having nicer things and having done greater things." I am not convinced that pleasure in doing something well compared to other people is a vice.
One interesting way to consider ethics is to look at yourself at different points in time as different persons, so you can see what happens if you internalitse all costs.
Envy is wrong because you shouldn't sabotage your future abilities because you are worse now, that is negative sum.
You also shouldn't sabotage your future abilities to make yourself worse in the future so you are comparatively better now, again that is negative sum. This is behaviour that might arise from yvne, but not yvne itself.
But taking pleasure in improvement does not seem like a bad thing at all: it costs nobody and provides pleasure, so I fail to see the problem.